(The Multilogue started 15 minutes late. Everyone was welcomed. It was also decided that from next time onwards , the Multilogues will start at the scheduled time. The document “moving forward” was distributed
Participants: Amit Sharma, Aruna Sharma, Anuja, Anuradha Joshi, Hitesh Joshi, Mahabir Singh, Manpreet Singh, Manoj, Manohar Khushlani, Munesh Kumar Sharma, Munesh, Ritu Kumar, Saji Kumar, Sudha Rani ).
Enquiry # 1: What is “Moving Forward” and the symbol on it?
Discussion: A few words about this document. First of all, there is a symbol on the left. It is not known which artist created this symbol. It has many overlapping symbols representing different religions. It also has faces merging-boundaries between humans fading! It is attractive, it draws attention and generates curiosity. It sure portrays humbleness and humility all around. It belongs to and encompasses multiple worlds.
- I am little confused about spiritualism. I believe in God. I have not seen him. I do not know how to do service to the nation as a whole, but if you can do little for the person next to you, to me that is spiritualism. That gives me peace of mind and I have had that. If I could give my labour, then possibly I am doing a service. It is very difficult to say that I am a dedicated man. It is very difficult to find dedicated people. Dedicated people are rare commodity in service – whether in government or outside. The symbol on this page indicates lots of religions and looks very spiritual. Is it deliberate?
- Somebody from Sweden posted it on the facebook group about three years back. On enquiry even the sender did not know who created it. As several other people liked it, it became a kind of permanent symbol for all groups leading to boundaryless world. As of now, it is here.
(Stand adopted: Till there is a suitable alternative available, let us continue with this symbol.)
On the right hand side of the “Moving Forward” there is identifying information about the document. The first line is the purpose. The second line is the occasion. The third line is the spirit of the occasion. The fourth line is the name of the document.
Of course, we are beginning a genuine but uncertain journey. Even though we are not clear where to go, still we decided to assembled together. That is why the spirit of the occasion is “Beginning the journey into the unknown” and the document is named “Moving Forward”.
(Stand adopted: this format may be we carried forward.)
(The items of “Moving Forward” were taken up. Everyone was requested to create an experience of being welcomed. Thereafter, all present introduced themselves. The introductions are separately compiled.)
Enquiry # 2: Some of us may have read about boundaryless world on the website or facebook. Some may have heard these words today for the first time. Let us share ‘What do I really listen in the word “Boundaryless world”?’. Let us bring that out. So that we can place it in the perspective.
Discussion: You know that there are thoughts. We have come to meet today. So, there is certain “now”. In this now, I think is a boundaryless world – a world in which we just get merged, whatever it is. This body has made us as a human being. One could get to that particular boundaryless world by merging in now. That is why I was attracted. We are for the principle.
- Little children are asked to write two lines about Moksha after death. It is Moksha – so need to believe in God. Your salvation is meeting the God within body. This salvation may be in my saying as a guidance to the child. Then they become educated and get that whatever is required to be a good citizen.
It is said that moksha is something to do with freedom. Moksha is not freedom from action, but freedom in action. So we can feel freedom in action as a human being. When we have freedom in this sense, we ourselves create a world which is boundaryless. So this is what it is – when we have freedom in action, we have a beautiful boundaryless world.
It should not be somebody putting or minimising restriction. We should act on our own subject to satisfaction of others. I have heard about art of living classes. I have heard some others believe – but without identifying it. I do not have basis of everything and I think, many challenges, many problems I am still facing. I know how to live. Art of living is by checking your action.
- When we went to Akshardham, in the first place is that you can sculpt. You can sculpt your own thing. Tools and everything is there and you have to give shape to that – even life. The idea is that as you go, you shape your life. You are responsible for your life, the way you think, the way you plan and that is what I am introduced to on this site. I need not reach the final stage. It is the vision, the journey, it is not final destination. This is journey, towards destination, for us to be committed to that destination and the destination is boundaryless world.
- I listen in the boundaryless world, quite a few things – what is wrong with the boundary? what is boundaryless world? There is nothing wrong. But we are too much about me being Indian. I could kill or die for that like some fool. In the nations, some do the decision making. When I think about any human being, I think whether this guy is human to me. When I am boundaryless, I communicate with them. So, I create a boundaryless world.
Sub-enquiry # 2.1: What are we talking about – economic boundaries or spiritual boundaries?
Discussion: What I listen is simple spiritual boundary. When you are thinking, you are your thought. That is the only thing which is boundaryless. At the same time I would like to say that my boundary is created by myself. I believe boundary is only in thought. For example where does Pakistan end and India start. Somebody says, even seas are divided.
- I am a Hindu, I am a man. It is a thought – if there is religion, if there is God. It is real, if it is thought. Thought is boundaryless.
- You say thoughts are boundaryless, he says there are boundaries in the thought. In fact, boundaries are expressed in thoughts.
- I think the two are different. One is boundary at a personal level, the other is boundaries in the world. What I am listening is that the thoughts create boundaries – whether it is geographical or personal.
- But we are talking about human centric world. I say fear creates boundary. If you are attached with material things, if somebody has undergone some treatment in somebody else’s hands, then fear is generated. human being can create fear. Fear begets fear. Fear creates boundaries.
- For me boundaries less world mean “aisae duniya jismain sab kuch karne ke azadi ho”.
Sub-enquiry # 2.2: Is the world already not a boundaryless world?
Discussion: It is already a boundaryless world.
- I have been in theatre, having been relating to unity in diversity. Yesterday, I went to Surajkund. There was culture from all parts of India. Despite the fact that each region has its own language, its own handicrafts, yet there is one spirit. Soul is one. That is literally a universal experience.
Sub-enquiry # 2.3: Does it have to be a uniform world?
Discussion: It can be a non-uniform world.
- Exactly, it need not be. You go to any city, it is the same things you get. You get same food, same architecture. So, the diversity is getting lost. There is a need to encourage multiplicity and not the universality. The question is about identifying what is getting lost. For example in a village, traditionally someone had the skill to find out where will water be found underground. Given the movement towards a uniform culture, his son is unlikely to have that knowledge and instead become a waiter in some hotel. The knowledge is getting lost. After one or two generation it will be lost.
- There is nothing wrong in knowledge getting lost. The knowledge which looses relevance, gets lost.
- How many times do we examine whether there is relevance or not. The Mayan civilisation has become extinct. Did it loose relevance? Or was it because of human greed? or only because some people wanted their ways of civilisation to expand?
- Of course, I agree with the idea. Due to propagation of materialism, we are losing our values one by one – Our intellectual knowledge, knowledge of the old people is getting lost. There in Kerala, we have coir industry. It is all product of coconut trees. Somebody organised a seminar in the hub of community with almost 180 farmers who are in the field. One person represented the industry. 185 patents have been granted to various companies. I was just asking my wife (I am not expert), how can these patents be granted? It is a natural thing – How to make things from coir or whatever. So, we are losing traditional knowledge and expertise. I have seen older people. They lie down and listen to get water. Now nobody has that knowledge, that skill, that talent. We are all powerless in front of those who use men and methods to maximise their gains and get away.
- People are only accumulating wealth, trying to control wealth. Now knowledge creates wealth. So people are trying to control knowledge. The person who will be born tomorrow, for no fault of his, is deprived of this magnificent knowledge. Everyone no longer has equal opportunity to enter into college and get a degree. The cost of study has risen so much. Whose child can go to Harvard for study? Isn’t it only the richest.
(Stand adopted: Merit has lost out to money.)
- In 1977-78 when I passed my 2nd degree in Kerala, somebody found an answer sheet of a university from a karayana shop. Sub-divisional Judge took notice and he sent a letter to the High Court of Kerala. First time it was taken as writ petition in the Court and inquiry was ordered and 525 people were caught, principals were arrested.
I passed out my school in a irresponsible manner. I could have secured well but I had different ideas. I could not perform well because there was nothing nourishing in the school. My uncle wanted me to get admitted to medical school. My father said I do not want that kind of doctor. If he doesn’t want, does not qualify let him work as a head load worker or let him be a driver. He wanted me to succeed in whatever I wanted to do on my merit. I wanted to do law and I did it.
- Every year crores of rupees go to the Harvard. These rupees are the strength required for studying there. Merit is secondary. Thus few people control rest of the people and their destiny. It has been so if you look at the history of human being, of humanity. Few people control the masses. They control everybody, everything. People have no rights at all.
(Stand adopted: Even though we have democracy, we have representatives from all parts of the country, still few people control everything.)
Sub-enquiry # 2.4: How to get more and more people to make a commitment to create a boundaryless world?.
Discussion: We may not have all the answers. But we can at least say that we are committed to find answers. We have committed to move in a direction to create a boundaryless world. There have to be ways even if we do not know them as of now. I have no idea. I have no full proof path chalked out. Since I do not have a fixed idea, I have nothing to defend. I do think a lot but I am not willing to impose those ideas. I am saying that there will be ways emerging with time. I request that we focus on the big picture and not get lost in the individual experiences and bits and pieces. We can keep moving forward and discuss the fundamentals. Let us try to define a boundaryless world.
Sub-enquiry # 2.5: What boundaryless world is not?
Discussion: It is not communism.
- What I have discussed on my website Uno-universe, I should say that in a boundaryless world, there will be right to live without passport. But I prefer that they should be migrated accordingly to the temper or behaviour. It is a wonderful idea but I think so long we as individuals cannot open our doors to each other, it will be useful to the enterprises only. So, this step in this direction, the focus on Boundaryless world is not no passport or visa mantra.
- It is not an international political system.
- It is not a cult which people are going to follow. Boundaryless world is not biased towards anything.
- Boundaryless does not means not having boundaries. For example, I believe this is my home and I live here. This is my boundary and I do not want to be disturbed. Boundaryless world can be beyond physical boundaries and even material boundaries.
- For any battle to take place, a boundary is a prerequisite. The idea is to create a boundaryless world in which there is no possibility of conflicts and battles.
- The whole idea is that the boundaries do not stop a human being from relating with other human beings. Boundaries are bound to be there. Boundaries are something we have to live with and they will be till eternity.
- I would say boundaryless is not like communism. So, it is not against the right to have property. Are we talking of national boundary? You have to be specific.
- Let us look at national boundaries. One thing is that these are consuming one-third of the global human enterprise for production of arms only.
- I differ. There is nothing wrong in having national boundaries. We have also to commit some of our resources to manufacturing for improvement.
- Our thinking is getting restricted and is being confined to the physical boundaries only. Please refer to the document for discussion for today. The way it sees “boundaries” is :-
“Whenever I honor anything (or anyone) more than a human being, a boundary arises.” All boundaries are invented (or adopted) and perpetuated first in my mind and then expressed in my behaviour. A Boundaryless World is a world in which human beings value each other primarily as human beings rather than anything else.
- We are looking at making it a better world. There are different set of values, conducts, etc. and these are giving variety to the world. So, there can be different norms than the present ones. There may be mutual agreements rather than boundaries. These agreements can be constructive and not separating. Boundaryless world is not some radicalism.
(Stand adopted: in boldface above.)
Enquiry # 3: In the multilogues, what do we talk about? What is that we intend to discuss?
Discussion: We talk about the world of last few centuries and how the next few centuries are going to shape up. We are not talking of an India centric approach or about any religion. We are not talking about a community or country. We are actually talking of the world.
- We are moving towards boundarylessness in a way that there is more interaction between one country with other countries, one people with the other people. We are moving towards that as the restrictions are lessening. When you actually interact with people, you find that there is not much difference between a Canadian and Australian. This idea sinks only when there is an opportunity to interact. Basically, a human is either a man or a woman. But, people of different regions may differ in other mannerism. Otherwise, man or woman are the same, in all parts of the world. In India, I do not know the difference between two women from different states living in the same area.
So, we are all the same. We constitute the world community. We will be different depending upon whether I am brought up being an Indian or I am brought up being a human being.
Sub-enquiry # 3.1: In our discussions should we focus on people, or on events, or on ideas?
Discussion: Ideas result in events and people are participants in the events. I propose that in the multilogues, let’s not talk of events and let’s not talk about people. Focusing on events of the past will require us to analyse the ideas which led to these events. There may be differences of opinion about the reasons of events. The interpretations may vary and we may get trapped in those discussions. So, why not focus on the merits, demerits, etc., of ideas only?
- Ideas also have their own boundary. They create divisions depending on from which side we view them. When we look at religion, I know of people who are actually trying to dominate. There may be a clash between the ideas of a believer or non-believer.
- I use to think why do we have temples, gurudwaras, churches, etc., if we believe in one omnipresent omnipotent? Then why do we require a middleman for dealing with God?
I have an answer to this. If I have to create an order, you need some boundaries. For example you tell people many ideas to come to temples. They may understand or not understand. Instead, you tell them that it is an area which is sanitised. You go there and pray and God will listen to you and God will solve your problems. But you have to tell him that in the temple you need to sit. The idea alone would not suffice. There must be events. We hold events. I would say that in the temple festivals, etc., let him participate and he will get a balance. The events charge him. Idea would not be sufficient to hold him into reality. It has to be through events, through people. But the focus has to be on ideas rather than events. I believe in discussion about ideas leading to action.
(Stand adopted: When action is contemplated, people will be involved, but when there is discussion, let us focus on ideas rather than events or individuals.)
Sub-enquiry # 3.2: When are we talking about boundaryless world, What is its basis – Spiritual? Social? Political? Economic? This is one of the most critical points..
Discussion: We are dealing with humanity. Therefore, all the above!
- The above cover the entire gamut of humanity but the symbol comes across mainly as spiritual. Let us first look at whether it is spiritual or physical.
Human beings for human beings – like that. Spiritualism cannot suffice for human beings in relation to boundarylessness. Of course, you also need resources, you need food. Food comes first. Then comes action for the objective. That also is to be addressed by the boundaryless world. But all Boundaries are in mind. If it exists, it exist in the mind. We have to change the very thing which is being perceived. So, Boundaryless world is a domain of the mind.
- Very few persons are attracted to spiritualism from an early age. They are exceptions. It is my understanding, I may be wrong, I am not sure, but I think most people who are attracted to spiritualism have some problem. That is what I have perceived. Are they our target? Are we targeting those who are disappointed? Somebody is facing some social problem, social allegation, social injustice; I try to address those issues politically and socially. Of course it has tinge of everything. Who are our targets?
- Our target is 7 billion living and many more billion to be born.
Para 3 from “Point of inflexion and Boundaryless world” lists two steps for creating a Boundaryless world. The first is – “To be Boundaryless” which is an internal journey and the second is “Creating a Boundaryless world” which requires expanding the efforts in the real world. So, in the first part of it, which is “being boundaryless”, there is an element of mind, religion, faith, spirituality. But as far as the second part is concerned which is about expanding, it is about the entire humanity.
Lots of people in the world are not spiritual. They don’t have anything to do with spirituality because their minds are conditioned through reason and not through faith. Any approach based on faith has access to limited number of people. On the contrary, principles based on reason have universal appeal. Therefore, we should adopt reason as the access to creating a Boundaryless world.
Spirituality, like sexuality, is a personal matter. When we relate with each other, we relate socially, based on social manners, we relate based on the patterns of production and distribution. My proposal is that the entire appeal of the boundaryless world to be created is to be based on the hardcore principle of production, distribution, consumption, wastage and their inter-relationship in this complicated world.
- I feel differently. All our actions are determined by how much I respect the other person. This shows in my attitude. And this is governed by spirituality. Suppose there is communal riot. Then spiritual part comes in. Then we can appeal to the people on the basis of spirituality that we are one.
- There is complication there. Very few people are able to distinguish between spirituality and religion. So, when you are dealing with the first part, which is being boundaryless, you yourself deal with all your internal barriers. But when you come out to create a Boundarless world, you talk in a manner which is universally acceptable.
- I also value human beings more than any boundary, more than even whatever boundary is created by religion. But as a practical step, to start with, let us not confuse. We should not limit or dilute the importance of faith. And if it is purely materialistic and does not take into account the spirit, lets not talk.
- There are two ways to look at it. It may be governed either by reason or governed by faith. There is something else also, which is far more convincing. It is experience. We relate to experiences in a much better way. If you are introduced to another person, that is an experience for a particular person. Every person must experience what is going on and what is to be. It is at an individual level. What I would say, it needs to be a spiritual journey. It can be introspection.
But when I come out to create structures in the world, those structures which need to obviate boundary, at that time what is important is not my experience, my faith or your faith. I am a human being, you are a human being and we are relating to each other as such. But in the second step also while expanding the boundarylessness across the civilisation, we shall be discovering ourselves. And in the moment when we are discovering, it is an internal journey which we cannot cut off. The movement you cut off, you avoid something and it creates uncertainty.
- I am not personally in favour of spiritualism. We have too many spiritual shops and our ordinary people are relying on God. Many religious leaders are propagating religion.
- I agree, lets not talk about spirituality. Introspection is good enough and it is not strictly private. It is a simple. Let’s start from within. By introspection, discover yourself and remove your own barriers. Then get into the other dimensions.
(Stand adopted: in boldface above.)
Sub-enquiry # 3.3: Should Boundaryless world include animals also?
Discussion: We should. Animal kingdom is an integral part of life on earth and future life on the planet will depend upon how the animals are preserved and treated.
- Animals are also creation of the same God. They also have a soul. Hence, we must include them in the pursuit of a Boundaryless world.
- Their world is any way boundaryless as they do not observe any national boundaries.
- The basic difference between human beings and animals is that human beings can appreciate reasons and can take responsibility.
(Stand adopted: A Boundaryless world is not in any conflict with the pursuit of save the animals, save the environment, etc. But these are not active pursuits of Boundarless world. Boundaryless world essentially focuses on human beings and the organisational structures of human civilisation.)
Enquiry # 4: What is in it for me? Why should I be boundaryless?
Discussion: We are selfish people. Everybody is. Even sanyaasis are selfish. If you are not selfish, there can be no selflessness. The question is whether we can minimise the quantum of selfishness. How much less selfish can we be? We have to ask ourselves – Why should I be boundaryless? Why do I want to be boundaryless? Do I really want to reduce my selfishness and become selfless? Unless the answer to this question is found, we have no right to propagate this idea.
- Why I should propagate the idea is because it will make me.
- Your time is precious for me because I am selfish. I am only bothered about me. I would like to be boundaryless for the simple reason to experience oneness, relatedness and boundarylessness with the people of Egypt, or with people warring against each other across all sorts of boundaries.
- Wars that are happening or are likely to happen are one thing. Apart from that, we see many kinds of wars in the businesses around the world. Capitalists are getting bigger and bigger, government is getting smaller and smaller. People are left neglected for the simple reason that the feeling of competition is getting bigger and bigger and there is no limit to it. You are getting bigger at the cost of people. This competitiveness really dehumanises the entire atmosphere. That is why it troubles me.
- I think about it at an idea level. I cannot address it alone or talk to every person. Rather than addressing it, people who can do something about it, also get interested in it. The entire atmosphere is to go for more competition. My thing should be better. Because other are looting, I should also loot. Everybody is doing. I also have to do.
I have to appreciate. Why I can not do without a wasteful lifestyle. There is lot of pain in the world. Since it is not acceptable to me, that is why I talk about being boundaryless. Let me also say – Resources are so limited, that is why boundaries are there. The resources in the world are limited and for equitable distribution of resources for all human beings we need to be boundaryless
- Why create a boundaryless self and a Boundaryless world? Why should I choose to be boundarless? I am very selfish person. For me boundaryless world will bring much more happiness than I have now.
- For addressing the problems of life, some people want to draw people to temple – want them there to pray to God – God will answer! How are we going to address these problems?
- People, for their own gains exploit other people. Anything which discriminates some people with other people creates boundaries. Government policies are used or exploited to deprive majority of the people. Boundaryless world is one where that deprivation can be restricted or minimised.
- There are two kinds of possible relations between two people, or groups of people – “samandh” or “shoshan” – Either relatedness or exploitation. Only one can exist. If there is exploitation, there would be no relatedness. If there is relatedness, there will be no exploitation. We are looking at eliminating boundary between human being and human being.
Where there is exploitation, there is exploiter and exploited. The deprivation of the exploited is visible. But when you are exploiter, then also you feel guilty because you valued other things more than a human being. When we have experienced boundarylessness, then there is no exploitation – neither exploited nor exploiter. If you have relatedness, then there is joy.
I have to leave this world for my child. I will die at the age of 90 or whatever but after that my child is going to share this world. What kind of thought process I am leaving for the future is important to me.
(Stand adopted: in boldface above.)
Enquiry # 5: What are the deliverables of the Boundaryless world?
Discussion: Para 6 of the document for discussion says that the Boundaryless world aspires that any human being born ever after lives his life and chooses his endeavours as his self-expression and not due to whatever compulsions of surviving. Can we adopt that as a deliverable?
(Stand adopted: There is still more clarity required about deliverables. This can be aspirable but not necessarily deliverable.)
Notes: (i) Due to paucity of time enquiry for the day (marginalisation of ‘happiness’ as the prime human endeavour) could not be taken up for discussion.
(ii) A document named “Discussing the website” was distributed and comments invited.
(iii) Action on web-site, multiversity, declaration about being boundaryless and reaching out were deferred.
(iv) The multilogues were decided to be held on 1st Sunday of every month. It was decided that few multilogues should take place in the similar setting and thereafter it will be reviewed.